X-Men Series

[criterionmaster]

Ok well basically there was a huge discussion me, ie, and a non-MFC member had over at another forum (TCB) and I thought it would cool to bring it over here.

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Started with someone reviewing X3, and me saying...

I am going to see Hard Candy soon. Looks amazing. I will probably never see X-3 though, those kind of movies don't interest me.

Then a non-MFC member said...

Why not, just out of curiosity? If you bring up anything about unrealistic hack action movies, i will bring up your copy of Mission Impossible 2. Yeah.

Then ie...

Dan the Man (criterionmaster) likes obscure artsy movies. That's just his nature.

Then non-MFC member...

Well, i would have assumed that was the sole reasoning, had i not seen the pictures of his dvd collection. There's a few mindless explosion-fests in there too.

Me...

Can't remember if I posted my DVDAficionado on here but those are under the "For Sale" section. I have been trying to sell them for awhile but places by my house have too many copies. I am not saying I can't watch a Die Hard-type movie, which is the reason I own it. I just have heard TERRIBLE things from people who like those types of films and love X-Men but also love Kurosawa and the like, so I can trust his opinion when it comes to something like this. Plus it looks really awful. I try to avoid almost all new films; they are all too flashy and new looking. But there is the occasional film I will go see.

And by the way, I think Brett Ratner is one of the worst directors ever! He even threatened to remake Killing of a Chinese Bookie, the hack! I can’t stand him or anything he stands for.

Non-MFC member...

Yeah, i've heard all the bad reviews, and personally i find them to come mostly from the people with an intense man-love for Bryan Singer. Ratner's contribution to the series was at least better than Singer's first X-Men movie, if not quite as good as the second. But they were ALL better than Superman Returns :laugh:. I have a wide variety of interests and appreciations, from Die Hard to Casablanca, and from Akira Kurosawa to Takashi Miike. But i also have an open mind, and dismiss very little based on the reviews.

Post that for sale list somewhere on here, i'd like to check it out.

ie...

Alright, the record will be straightened out right now.


AND, THERE ARE NO SPOILERS OF DEATH.


Especially because the friend that criterionmaster is talking about and I have not exactly seen eye to eye. So I will introduce the voice of reason, which will spread THE TRUTH about the X-Men movies. And guess what? I'm not a fucking X-Men fanatic, although I have a certain degree of attachment to the series. (Childhood favorite.)


X-Men 1 is still a good movie. This is a fact that you can tell your math teacher, and can be used to accurately calculate advanced calculus formulas. This is also a fact that you can use in a debate with your political science teacher over the value of movies as an entertaining form of depth and meaning. The movie says shit, and if you didn't catch it, you obviously weren't paying any attention at all.

So why was the first X-Men movie good? Because it did not rely on other sources; you didn't have to know shit going in, but leaving, you could really get a sense for both what makes X-Men fun and what makes X-Men culturally significant. Yeah, I said that. The cinematography is there, you will believe that because it should be apparent upon watching the movie that there are scenes that are visually impressive. Just look at the beginning scene between Xavier and Lehnsherr. The music is by Michael Kamen. You were introduced to these characters - and the only reason why there is any hatred toward this movie is because it was based off of a comic book, if this were based off of a novel or wholly original, there would be more fans - and they rocked.

Wolverine should have metallic sound effects. His skeleton is made of awesome steel. Duh. (Why they forgot this later I don't know, but oh well.) He was also a very intimidating figure. If you try to deny how scenes like this showed how much of a dangerous character Wolverine is, you're not getting it.



I might add as a footnote to the previous paragraph that Wolverine's infamous "middle claw" is still funny and not at all out of place even now.

I re-watched the movie a couple of months ago, and I must say that it was a thoroughly impressive movie.




The second X-Men movie featured Nightcrawler. That fact alone makes it a good movie, and if you don't agree with that fact, I suggest you do some research.

I was initially a little disappointed with X-Men 2. I think this is in part because X-Men 2 really leads into X-Men 3, whereas X-Men 1 existed on its own.

However, as a whole, X-Men 2 goes more for the fun action than the thinking. Not that the movie suffers at all because of it, because three movies basically saying the same things all made by the same people would be kind of boring.



X-Men 3 returns to the issues presented in X-Men 1, and also brings some new issues to the table. You'll have to read into what is presented in X-Men 3 to know what I'm talking about, since I haven't been in the mood to really talk at length about the plots of the movies.

I was a little disappointed with the last about half hour of X-Men 3, but I did thoroughly enjoy it and I have tested it to ensure that this was not a fluke.



Overall, you cannot hate on the X-Men movies. If you do, you're just yelling "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON!" "I'M STUPID!" and "I ONLY WATCH MOVIES TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE!"

And, you don't even need to be up-to-date on the X-Men comics to enjoy them. You don't have to know shit about the comics to enjoy them. You don't have to know shit to enjoy the movies, although it helps because they're not exactly action-for-the-sake-of-action flicks.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go return some videotapes.

Non-MFC member...

The second X-Men movie featured Nightcrawler. That fact alone makes it a good movie, and if you don't agree with that fact, I suggest you do some research.

Overall, you cannot hate on the X-Men movies. If you do, you're just yelling "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON!" "I'M STUPID!" and "I ONLY WATCH MOVIES TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE!"

These two statements deserve a round of applause.

ie...

Thank you, thank you.

I'd like to thank the Academy of Kickass for making all of this possible. I really couldn't have done it without the support of Wikipedia, my DVD player, my brain, and the chair that I'm sitting on. I'd also like to thank most everyone involved behind the X-Men movies. They may not be epic masterpieces of life, but they get unjustified flack and hopefully I've put some of it to rest. Because after all, I just CASINOwned.

Me...

Well I do understand what's going on, I am not stupid (although some may disagree), and I don't watch movies to impress people at all. Case in point, I own the film Basket Case. I think the first X-Men is complete crap and I will never watch it again. X2 I find to be a very entertaining film, and one of the few good superhero films. But it is very hard for me nowadays to get excited for many films (like X2, in fact if X2 came out now I know for a fact I wouldn't have gone to see it) that come out in the theater. Hell I love Do the Right Thing and I didn't even feel the need to see Inside Man. It is much easier for me to get excited about a new Criterion release then a new theatrical release. Saying I can't hate on a film, like X-Men films are the Holy Grail or something is nuts. Really there isn't a single film that is untouchable. And I am definitely not a Bryan Singer fan-boy or anything, although I do like Usual Suspects. It just that the film doesn't interest me.

ie...




I'm going to have to get on your case for this one, Dan (criterionmaster). You're contradicting yourself, and furthermore, you're making me look bad.

I don't watch movies to impress people at all. Case in point, I own the film Basket Case.

I don't watch movies to impress people but I own this movie!

I think the first X-Men is complete crap and I will never watch it again. X2 I find to be a very entertaining film, and one of the few good superhero films.

I'll break you the news: X-Men 1 and X-Men 2 are pretty much the same movie. You've got your differences, yes, but it's not like X-Men 1 is a historical documentary and X-Men 2 is a chick-flick.

It is much easier for me to get excited about a new Criterion release then a new theatrical release.

Criterion releases are usually filtered by a bunch of people who think they know what's good. Often times... they're right. But as I keep telling you, there are still good movies being released from the Hollywood Factory, and as we know, most of the Criterion releases were released in theaters at some point.

Saying I can't hate on a film, like X-Men films are the Holy Grail or something is nuts.

I would really appreciate not being taken out of context.


Anyways, the entirety of the post that you did not read consists of this: the X-Men movies are being hated on by people for unjustified reasons. As I said, "the only reason why there is any hatred toward this movie is because it was based off of a comic book, if this were based off of a novel or wholly original, there would be more fans" meaning that because it's X-Men and not Wholly Original Work #8, people feel a need to distance themselves from the movies, if only to not appear nerdy.

Additionally, I did not mean to imply that the X-Men movies are like the Holy Grail. I'm just fucking pissed off about all of this bullshit about dumbfucks hating on a movie they essentially know nothing about. It's dumbfuckery and I can't stand for it.

And I am definitely not a Bryan Singer fan-boy or anything, although I do like Usual Suspects

One does not need to be a fan-boy to enjoy the Usual Suspects, and based off of how this sentence was used, it implies something (whether you knew it or not) deeper. Essentially, the Usual Suspects in this sentence is a throw-away movie reference (even if the movie is good), as is Bryan Singer's name. If you look at it like that, that sentence basically says that only fan-boys could enjoy the X-Men series.



Overall, I think the movies are solid and have depth and meaning to them. Those who disagree with this point really did not try to think at all about what the movies are trying to say and were just like "oh, Hollywood. Crap."

And that's why I'm getting on your case. Because you generalized. And, maybe because you think X-Men 1 is "complete crap," which if you had read some of what I wrote about the movie, you'd realize is quite wrong. A movie is complete crap when nothing is decent in the movie, when you've got a lunker in every department, and one that basically should never have been made, but was, so we have to live with it. This sentence does not describe X-Men 1, or frankly, 90%+ of movies.


Exhibit 0:




Exhibit 1:




(These screenshots are presented to show that, if these X-Men movies had been crap, there wouldn't have been attention paid to cinematography.)

Me...

Oh Jesus…

I was saying that if I wanted to impress people I wouldn't own a film that sucks so badly, or in other words that was just a joke comment for anyone who has seen the film.

I don't see how you could say they are the same film. It's like saying Kill Bill Vol. 1 and 2 are the same. I feel X2 to be way better paced film, and actually entertaining to watch. But I found the first one boring and just nothing stood out. Nothing that I hadn't already seen anyway.

Yeah, I have no problem with all Hollywood films. I am going to go see The Departed, that’s Hollywood last time I checked. But like I said most films I have seen this decade so far has been your standard movie. I haven't seen a truly original Hollywood film in years. That's not to say there aren't any, that’s just from my experience I haven't come across any.

I don't hate on a film because of source material. Just because a film is a comic book film doesn't make mean it sucks. I have seen almost every single comic book-based film and most of them have sucked (imo), I know people like these, or else they wouldn't keep making them, but I just haven’t come across many good ones.

All film is subjective, like I find 400 Blows to be one of the most perfect films ever made, where as you found it to be just average (or whatever word you used). So saying you are pissed off just because people don't like a film is kind of crazy. While I agree most people who watch these films know nothing, or any films for that matter, but I am pretty sure I can grasp the characters and film. They don't go super deep or anything, it doesn't take a genius to watch the film.

I said the Singer fan-boy thing because someone mentioned that they people didn't like X3 because Singer was gone. So I was just telling everyone that, that's not the reason for not seeing the film.

And the shots look good but don't save a film I don't like. There are many examples I could give where just because a film has a good element it still isn't a good film. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "complete" and just said "crap" since obviously it is not completely crap but I still dislike it a lot.

And as for the meaning behind the films, like I was saying, it is deeper than a lot of films but really not as deep as say Au Hasard Balthazar :laugh: .

I just don't enjoy the films, it's my opinion. I don't care if you do or not. I don't see the problem; there are tons more people that hate these films. At least I said I enjoyed the second one. Like I said not many new films interest me. Yes, I am generalizing with "new films" but I think I have enough experience with film to know what I like and don't. And what makes a good film to me and not.

ie...

I'll just end this now.


Okay, ended.

Well I posted this because I was wondering what all of you thought of this series and what you think about this discussion.

[captainofbeef]

I personally nearly have the same opinion on these films as Criterionmaster does. I watched X1 and while it was not a piece of crap, I didn't think it was all that great of a movie. I originally had no interest in seeing the sequel. But the sequel was very entertaining and improved greatly on the first film. X3 was awful period. The dialogue at times was actually laughable. Example, The Juggernaut stopping mid fight scene to say, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch." made me laugh out loud. Any character development that happened in the first and second films was barely added to at all. It was replaced with fight scenes and explosions. Overall, the series needs to end. The last few scenes of X3 made me cringe, especially if you stayed after the credits. There should be no more additions in this series and Ratner should just give up directing films all together.

[ie]

captainofbeef said:

The Juggernaut stopping mid fight scene to say, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch." made me laugh out loud.

Actually, that was the point.


As for X-Men 3, yes it did follow the trend of less-and-less character development, but I thought it worked out well.

Yes, toward the end it was basically a big Hollywood explosion fest, but I thought it was a good movie none-the-less.

[kiddo]

Thanks for posting this, Cm. It is/was an interesting discussion, though I`ve only seen X2 ( ). I thought it was ok (the opening sequence was excellent, though!), but it didn`t quite function on a very deep level. Maybe I should check the others out, if not for only have a reason to debate on this subject.

[PTAhole]

I pretty much agree with Dan here. I don't hate the first one, but it doesn't do much for me. The second one was a lot of fun, and it's one of my favorite superhero movies. The thrid one is terrible. The Juggernaut line sucked. Either it took you out of a serious moment (if I can call it that), or it's just a shitty line. I LOVE big action movies if they're done well. Case in point: Die Hard, Terminator (1&2), Leathal Weapon, First Blood, Spider-Man 1&2, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, Superman Returns (whoever said that all the X-Men movies were better than this can fuck off.) etc. I even liked this year's Mission: Impossible III. X-Men 3 IS NOT a good action movie. Had they focused more on the Pheonix thing it might have worked better as a story, and all of that.

[criterionmaster]

Exactly, there are some good action films but not a large amount. I have seen basically everything this genre has to offer, it has come to a point where almost everything in action films are cliche.

And that line in X3 sounds like it could of won an award for something so bad, and so out of place. While I have not seen the film, even if X3 was a straight-up comedy I would find that line to be terrible.

[criterionmaster]

Reported from X-MenFilms.net

Update: Our friends at IESB recently posted a response to this article (below) involving Marvel and 20th Century Fox, which you can read here. Our source at Marvel never stated that 20th Century Fox was loosing rights to the X-Men, but that Marvel wants to seek greater involvement, re: the future of the X-Men films.

To add to the question of film rights, straight from Marvel: “Fox does not own the film rights forever. The X-Men are trademarks of Marvel Entertainment Inc. And we [Marvel] in the end will have final say on what happens with our own characters.”

There may be some conflicting ideas on what to do next in the franchise (besides the solo films), but eventually they’ll come to a compromise. It doesn’t mean they’ll split. Why on earth would they? Marvel and Fox go together well, and they know this.

Our source at Marvel Entertainment gave us the latest update on the ongoings of the X-MEN franchise, and what the future may hold for our favorite mutants:

Recently at the company’s web-site, we posted the latest on what was going on with all our movie projects during our last web-cast, which is available for downloading at Marvel.com. At one point during the conference, It was brought up that the future of both the X-Men and Spider-Man movie franchises will depend on how talks between Marvel, The Sony Company, and Fox will go next.

Since then some talks have taken place, and I must say that at the moment, It tends to favor Spider-Man more. Sony is so confident that Spider-Man 3 will be a hit that both the studio and Marvel are in active talks about doing more movies with the current cast and film crew. Talks between Marvel and Fox have not gone so smoothly.

I am not saying that it is hopeless, but there tends to be more disagreement on what to do next with The Children of the Atom. There is really no firm deal on the table as to what to do next. At the time of X3’s release, it was widely reported “well this is the last movie” despite the last scenes that were shown. Then the Box Office results kind of made Fox change their minds, at least all of a sudden they became more open to the idea of doing an X-Men 4.

But Marvel has an alternate plan for the future of these movies. One that Fox is reluctant to take seriously. However, they may have little choice in the matter because ultimately the X-Men are Marvel’s characters and with Marvel making even bigger steps to control and have more say in the production of their movies, the news on the future of the X-Men movies (which will be revealed in good time) I’m sure will come as a pleasent surprise to both the long time X-Men readers and those who have just recently got interested in them because of the movies.

[criterionmaster]

I will post this hear for now, maybe sometime I will make a thread of its own, if it needs one.

Avi Arad Talks Magneto
Source: MTV May 15, 2007

MTV talked to producer Avi Arad who revealed a bit more about Magneto, the upcoming "X-Men" movies spinoff. Here's a clip:

"Think of meeting him in [the first "X-Men" movie] as a young boy in a concentration camp. What happens to his life after the war?" he teased of the film's plot. Arad quickly answered his own question, telling MTV News that the flick will follow Magneto discovering "if [his powers are] real or not and the whole journey of [his] survival as a young man."

Click here for the full article!

[captainofbeef]

The Magneto movie sounds interesting. But the director of Blade Trinity and the producer of Ghost Rider at the helm obliterates any interest I could have had.

[criterionmaster]

Tom Rothman on More X-Men Movies[/b]
Source: The Comedian, A1ant May 25, 2007

While he doesn't specifically say that there will be an X-Men 4, Fox's Tom Rothman has responded to the many e-mails and letters from fans about further "X-Men" movies. The note at TheXVerse.com reads:

The next film in the X-Men series will be "Wolverine," starring Hugh Jackman. You can expect some announcements about this movie in the very near future. And we fully intend to continue to make more "X-Men" films with both old and new muties. So fans can rest assured that they will have many opportunities in the coming years to see their favorite characters on the big screen.

The other spinoff in the works is Magneto. In related news, Rebecca Romijn was asked by MTV if she'd heard anything about either spinoff. She hasn't.

End of Article.

[chrisspielberg]

I have to say i really really loved the first two x-men films; just the way Singer uses his own technique while having the advantage of a big budget; fine action, FX and performances.

The third one... we probably could have done without, or at least it could have had the patience to wait for Singer after finishing Superman Returns (which i also found quite enjoyable)!

They've left it open for a fourth film in this series, but i really don't think they should go through with it. But hey what do the fan's know, we're just the one's who go pay to see the damn things... ahem, excuse me. However I would look forward to a Megneto spin-off. The Wolverine thing i can take or leave.

[criterionmaster]

well, sadly, most of the fans of these films will just go and see them anyways, they would never listen to people who might actually know what they are talking about, when people who have no clue, and just go for the action, or whatever, still pay to see them. i for one passed on seeing the third one, it looked like such crap.

[chrisspielberg]

hmmm... and was it just me or was the Angel guy just a pontless plot point of the third film? What the hell did he do?? Nothing that's what!!

;D

[captainofbeef]

I thought he was the best part of the film personally...

[chrisspielberg]

captainofbeef said:

I thought he was the best part of the film personally...

Well maybe but it's not really hard to better the rest of the film