Persona

[criterionmaster]

A film that is very hard to grasp, and maybe even harder to discuss but I want to see what others thought of this film. And maybe we can better understand it. BEWARE* There could be spoilers in the thread but we will try to mark them as best we can.

Start the thread with what has already been said:

police386 said:

Persona (Ingmar Bergman) (1966)



well, still trying to wade through this one, trying to figure out just what the fuck was going on. kinda like my first time watching Mulholland Dr. The 2 female leads were excellent, and the dream/reality thing was well done. Much of it, though, was way too vacuous and "empty" for my taste. i think i really gotta watch it again to get a better opinion of it, but for now,

8/10

nomansvally said:

Persona is so strange, I saw it before the summer vacation and I could'nt make much out of it then, I hope to rewatch it soon 'cos my local library has a DVD copy.

[kiddo]

Some of my thoughts (more to come):

Ok, I don`t know quite how to write about this experience, but I know it was big. I guess it`s Bergmans most experimental film (at least from what I have seen), and it`s so complex that I would assert that it takes several viewings before you really get the full grasp of it, if you ever will. I mean, it`s so much to think about here you can go crazy. The cinematography is amazing! Not that ìt came as a surprise.

I ecspesially loved one scene, where Alma (Bibi Anderson) speaks to Elisabeth (Liv Ullmann); You first observe Elisabeths face, as you hear Almas words (words that can easily be read as offending and unbearable), before you, in the next scene, observe Alma as she says the exact same words. You see the Almas "speech" two times, from two different angles. It let`s you see boths facial expressions, and also manage to let it all go down inside you. When you see Almas face, you can "see" Elisabeths face as well (because you just saw it some seconds ago, when the exact same words was delivered. It may also say that the things Alma is talking about is utterly correct; you see her confrontation from different angles, but she says the same thing anyhow.


A picture from the scene I`m talking about; here you see Almas face.

Maybe I`ve gone to far with it, hehe. I have not read anything about the film yet, but now, guess what I`m gonna do!

Persona is a film so powerful and hard to fully grasp, it`s a must to see it over and over. Me, well, i am gonna watch it quite soon again.

[criterionmaster]

kiddo said:

I ecspesially loved one scene, where Alma (Bibi Anderson) speaks to Elisabeth (Liv Ullmann); You first observe Elisabeths face, as you hear Almas words (words that can easily be read as offending and unbearable), before you, in the next scene, observe Alma as she says the exact same words. You see the Almas "speech" two times, from two different angles. It let`s you see boths facial expressions, and also manage to let it all go down inside you. When you see Almas face, you can "see" Elisabeths face as well (because you just saw it some seconds ago, when the exact same words was delivered. It may also say that the things Alma is talking about is utterly correct; you see her confrontation from different angles, but she says the same thing anyhow.


A picture from the scene I`m talking about; here you see Almas face.

Maybe I`ve gone to far with it, hehe. I have not read anything about the film yet, but now, guess what I`m gonna do!

Persona is a film so powerful and hard to fully grasp, it`s a must to see it over and over. Me, well, i am gonna watch it quite soon again.

I know exactly what scene you mean, and it was one that stood out to be as well. I had never seen anything like it and it took me a while to even understand what Bergman was doing. It was like something that you don’t see in a film, what is off screen.

I would say, for me, the most powerful thing in the whole film is when Alma tells that story about...

SPOILER: Click to show

when she and another girl had sex with the young boys. It is so graphic, and doesn't even feel like it could be in the film; it would fit more in a film like Salo. But after it is said there is no way it can't stay in your head forever.

I immediately watched the film two times after finishing it, never have I done something like that. It just blew me away, and I took something very different each time. The film is so experimental that it makes it so there is almost no way to know exactly what happens, no matter how many times you watch it.

I will wait to hear other people’s thoughts before I explain my take on the ending. But it will be really hard to even articulate it.

[kiddo]

andruini said:

Two scenes that stood out for me were the scene where Alma chases Elizabeth along the beach, I can't remember now what was going on, but I remember it was a really great shot and a strangely beautiful one...

Yes, that scene is stuck in my mind as well. I was just blown away by the cinematography, I was just "I don't quite get the grasp of this thing, but I know this is something genuinly special and rare".

andruini said:

...This is one of the greatest film achievements ever.

Yes, you may be right about that. I will rewatch it soon, then come back with my thoughts.

[sidehacker]

This is probably my least favorite Bergman film, but I have only seen 4 of his films in total. I really can't grasp why people love it so much, though I did enjoy it somewhat I just couldn't find myself interested. Nothing really memorable in the film, but I must say I really love it when Bergman is simplistic and sticks to a minimal amount of characters in one isolated location, such as he did in this film.

I can't really remember much so I should rewatch it sometime soon, despite the fact I really don't have much desire to.

[criterionmaster]

What other films have you seen from him?

[sidehacker]

- Fanny and Alexander
- The Seventh Seal
- Through a Glass Darkly

Loved 'em all.

[criterionmaster]

Ah yes, I hope you saw Fanny and Alexander TV version. It is my favorite film ever made. And as for why I liked Persona: the cinematography, performances, and experimental elements of the film. As well as everything I stated in my above posts. You may like it more on re-watch.

[ie]

I highly recommend checking out Persona: A Poem In Images, which is about a half hour documentary featured on the MGM (only?) release that goes into great detail about Persona.

This is especially urgent if you did not feel anything less than complete admiration for Persona.

As a side note before we begin, just to make sure we get the lingering thought out of your head and out of mine: I don't really care about MGM, and as of this writing I am not working for them. I am simply presenting how this documentary changed my opinion of Persona. I think people who loved the movie, though, would also enjoy the documentary, but they don't need it as badly.

And, at this point in my life, I would not buy the DVD, unless it were very cheap. So, I would recommend going the DVD rental/borrowing route.

As for our friends outside of Region 1, perhaps there's a copy of the documentary floating around. If not, my advice would probably be to just read more about the movie, and specifically people's interpretations. I know it's painful, especially if you did not think as much about Persona as everyone else, which is strange enough as it is, but just continue reading. Eventually you'll find something that strikes you as accurate and very close to what you understood and took away from your viewing(s).

Before I saw Persona: A Poem In Images, I was thinking of giving Persona a 7/10, because nothing really fit and you couldn't really tell what was going on. Just didn't really understand it, which was jarring and unpleasant. (Not that I don't like jarring or unpleasant movies, so long as they have meaning, but you know, it just didn't really strike me.)

SPOILER: Click to show

Then I realized, that's not the point!

You are focusing on the wrong things if you're concerned over whether what you just saw was a lie, or even whether or not Alma is Elisabet. Persona is about psychoanalysis, but I believe it's also about the deconstruction of the movie process. (Does that mean the story didn't matter?)

Thanks to that perspective, was able to appreciate Persona much more than I did a mere half hour before. It still is just too confusing for my tastes, and I doubt I will watch it again for at least five years. However, the fact remains that after I saw the documentary, I gained actual respect for the movie.


By how much? From a 7/10 to a 9/10.
In other words, I urgently advise you to watch Persona: A Poem in Images if you have seen Persona and not already done so already, because passing on the documentary would simply be like stopping the movie with ten minutes left to go.


MGM went above and beyond what they needed to do in releasing this version of Persona. To simply compare this release to a Criterion release would be enough for some of the people here, but for me, I would need more, I would not be convinced. The restoration, and level of effort that went into this release, is comparable to the upper tiers of Criterion's releases; the best of their best restorations. All the Criterion Collection could do to improve upon it is just, maybe... maaybe, clean it up slightly and just pile on the extras. Dare I say that would be unrequired (although not unappreciated)?


Going back to the plot...

I did not find the story that Alma told to be that disturbing or even that explicit. It was frank, but that's how people really talk. Andersson even modified the script so that she was not simply reciting Bergman's interpretation of how Andersson's character would be telling this story.

SPOILER: Click to show

I found the shot Fight Club referenced - the penis, which is right at the very beginning of the movie, during all that bizarre shit - to be much more explicit.

Also something from the documentary, either Bergman himself, one of the two actresses, or the historian commented with certainty about the scene at the end where the speech is said twice. The reason for this was that Bergman couldn't decide whether to show the speaker or the listener talk, and so he simply went with both.


That's really all I feel like writing. It's doubtful that anyone's still reading at this point, but if so, thanks. This post actually went through a major revision, as some of the sentences were constructed almost completely opposite of how they should have been written, but hopefully I fixed them enough to make them readable. And, certainly, this is the most effort I've put into a post in quite a long time.

[criterionmaster]

ie said:

I highly recommend checking out Persona: A Poem In Images, which is about a half hour documentary featured on the MGM (only?) release that goes into great detail about Persona.

This is especially urgent if you did not feel anything less than complete admiration for Persona.

As a side note before we begin, just to make sure we get the lingering thought out of your head and out of mine: I don't really care about MGM, and as of this writing I am not working for them. I am simply presenting how this documentary changed my opinion of Persona. I think people who loved the movie, though, would also enjoy the documentary, but they don't need it as badly.

And, at this point in my life, I would not buy the DVD, unless it were very cheap. So, I would recommend going the DVD rental/borrowing route.

As for our friends outside of Region 1, perhaps there's a copy of the documentary floating around. If not, my advice would probably be to just read more about the movie, and specifically people's interpretations. I know it's painful, especially if you did not think as much about Persona as everyone else, which is strange enough as it is, but just continue reading. Eventually you'll find something that strikes you as accurate and very close to what you understood and took away from your viewing(s).

Before I saw Persona: A Poem In Images, I was thinking of giving Persona a 7/10, because nothing really fit and you couldn't really tell what was going on. Just didn't really understand it, which was jarring and unpleasant. (Not that I don't like jarring or unpleasant movies, so long as they have meaning, but you know, it just didn't really strike me.)

SPOILER: Click to show

Then I realized, that's not the point!

You are focusing on the wrong things if you're concerned over whether what you just saw was a lie, or even whether or not Alma is Elisabet. Persona is about psychoanalysis, but I believe it's also about the deconstruction of the movie process. (Does that mean the story didn't matter?)

Nice recommendation of the documentary, I forgot to do that. It was quite good and while I already was building an interpretation before I watched it, it did give me the deconstruction of film element. Which is something I really loved.

Well the fact that the film was made this way were you could think and think about what the film was about, and still not come up with an answer was one of my favorite elements. It gives the film re-watch value, which I have said before that I did re-watch it, in fact twice back to back (3 times in all).

Thanks to that perspective, was able to appreciate Persona much more than I did a mere half hour before. It still is just too confusing for my tastes, and I doubt I will watch it again for at least five years. However, the fact remains that after I saw the documentary, I gained actual respect for the movie.


By how much? From a 7/10 to a 9/10.
In other words, I urgently advise you to watch Persona: A Poem in Images if you have seen Persona and not already done so already, because passing on the documentary would simply be like stopping the movie with ten minutes left to go.

I already had as much respect for the film as I could after initial watch, but the documentary didn't hurt.

MGM went above and beyond what they needed to do in releasing this version of Persona. To simply compare this release to a Criterion release would be enough for some of the people here, but for me, I would need more, I would not be convinced. The restoration, and level of effort that went into this release, is comparable to the upper tiers of Criterion's releases; the best of their best restorations. All the Criterion Collection could do to improve upon it is just, maybe... maybe, clean it up slightly and just pile on the extras. Dare I say that would be unrequired (although not unappreciated)?[/quote]

Criterion could clean it up a little more because these Bergman MGM releases aren't the best quality, although the Persona one is still good. And if you were blown away by the extras, look at the box set which this is included in, it has a bonus disc at the end which adds even more extras.

Going back to the plot...

I did not find the story that Alma told to be that disturbing or even that explicit. It was frank, but that's how people really talk. Andersson even modified the script so that she was not simply reciting Bergman's interpretation of how Andersson's character would be telling this story.

SPOILER: Click to show

I found the shot Fight Club referenced - the penis, which is right at the very beginning of the movie, during all that bizarre shit - to be much more explicit.

I found it more explicit than I should have because it was right in the middle of the film in which there wasn't even a second of explicit material that came before it. I wasn't expecting it to happen, so it really surprised me. It is still graphic to me.

Also something from the documentary, either Bergman himself, one of the two actresses, or the historian commented with certainty about the scene at the end where the speech is said twice. The reason for this was that Bergman couldn't decide whether to show the speaker or the listener talk, and so he simply went with both.


That's really all I feel like writing. It's doubtful that anyone's still reading at this point, but if so, thanks. This post actually went through a major revision, as some of the sentences were constructed almost completely opposite of how they should have been written, but hopefully I fixed them enough to make them readable. And, certainly, this is the most effort I've put into a post in quite a long time.

SPOILER: Click to show

I feel somewhat that the two characters are the same, its hard to explain and really the only thing I can think of is when the two faces morphed into one face, you know what I mean?

Surprised you didn't mention any performances, since the were fantastic! Especially Liv Ullman who conveyed so much without speaking.

Such a deep film, there is really so much going on. As you state that it would be wrong to look at certain things, it just goes to show how many things you can look out. How many interpretations there can be.

[ie]

Glad you agreed and validated my sentiments.

Definitely one of the best documentaries about a movie that I've seen, at least of the package-in variety. (Tron's Making of Tron being the only other one I can think of that gave me more respect for the movie, and wasn't self-serving.)


As I said earlier, I just don't feel like rewatching Persona. (I don't even really want to rewatch it right now, even if I had the chance.) I doubt I'll get around to watching it again for a couple of years, which will be good, because then I will have matured, and the time between could help me better grasp the plot and such.


Maybe Criterion could clean it up, and add more extras, but a good 95% of what Criterion might have done in the restoration department is there. As for the extras, Persona: A Poem In Images was the only extra that was really needed; everything else might just be filler extras.


Well, there wasn't anything explicit going on, but there was plenty of titillation going on. Wasn't no goddamn Disney movie, Danny boy!


I wrote about my thoughts on acting elsewhere, but basically, I don't concern myself with acting unless someone brings it up, or I kind of pick up on how well the acting's going.

In this case, yes, the acting was good. To be a major character in a movie, to say only one word, and not be a dull character, requires a good amount of acting.



I think it'd just be helpful for everyone who might grade the movie 8/10 or below, to really just not be concerned with what they'd normally be concerned with in movies.

Follow the advice I posted in my last post, and you should at the very least gain some respect for Persona, if you don't already respect it.

[solo]

"Persona" is easily Bergman's greatest feat. The first time I saw it, some three years ago, I was half asleep and it doubled the experience. Amazing film.