Park Chan Wook

[ie]

Well, I think Park Chan-wook is capable of some really great movies, so I'll watch it when I'm able to.

If you didn't know this by now: I don't really get hyped to see movies. I mean, I could get hyped to see Lady Vengeance, or even non Park Chan-wook movie Yi Yi, but then all that hype might lead to disappointment. Whereas if I am just like "oh, good to know, I'll check it out when I can," then if it was a disappointment, I won't feel too bad.

I need to see Lady Vengeance, though...

[agentknight]

Screw you guys, that's going to be the third best movie ever (after Inland Empire and Takeshis').

[Clark Nova]

I just watched Lady Vengance, and I already posted this on the Last Film You've Seen message board, so i'll get right down to the point: better than Mr. Vengeance, not nearly as good or innovative as Oldboy. i liked Mr. Vengeance, but it seemed a little too experimental and student film-ish...this was like that, but more, shall we say, professional. geum-ja's an involving protagonist, and the fairly light first half of the film gives way to an incredibly dark and disturbing second half. min-sik choi's good enough as the sick and twisted teacher after making such a name for himself with what was quite frankly a legendary performance in Oldboy. So overall, the movie's got some great moments, but a little too often it just feels empty...as if the director's intentionally trying to get that one über-cool looking shot, or trying to be overly-depressing in that last shot that i'm still trying to wrap my head around. creative and unique? no doubt (as usual with Chan-wook Park). but, it's just too flawed and uneven to stand beside the pretty much flawless and stunning Oldboy.

7.5/10

[ie]

I read a review of Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance that started out with...

The heir apparent to Sam Peckinpah is tucked away far from Hollywood. Chan-wook Park...


So I saw it again, and here's some thoughts:

I felt more tense watching it the second time through, actually; couldn't seem to relax or soak in a good laugh. I guess I didn't want to start laughing out loud because my brother was watching it. He didn't like it as much as Oldboy, but mainly because the story is not told in a conventional manner. Just like how in certain scenes we don't hear anything because Ryu couldn't hear anything, not everything in the story is said, so it's easy to get confused.


I still thought it was pretty good. I can enjoy the artsy feel, but cinematography means shit if there's nothing behind it, and I still feel confident in saying that Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance's main message is loud and clear. Revenge does not pay. That's why I give it a 10/10. Not because of the artsy-fartsy cinematography or bullshit like that.

[ie]

Some good and valid questions, sparked by these discussions over at the Seen any good movies lately thread:

captainofbeef said:

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance

8.5/10
The film starts out slowly, very slowly. In fact, I was actually bored by the first forty five minutes of the film. But it picked up, and when it did, the film became visually engrossing. Revenge plots fly everywhere in this film, unlike Oldboy, which had one plot. You can tell that this film was essentially the warm up for Oldboy. Kinda like Kagemusha for Ran. Wook Park works on his visual style and his ideas, which he would later perfect in Oldboy. The acting is good for the most part, though the character of the retarded kid on the lake wasn't really needed. The direction was very good as well. But the poor pacing of the first half prevented this film from being truly great. Can't wait for Lady Vengeance.

police386 said:

definitely agree. mr. vengeance seemed like a test-run for Oldboy...like park was experimenting with a certain style that he'd perfect in Oldboy...in a way Lady Vengeance feels like Mr. Vengeance, but helmed by a more experienced director. it's no Oldboy, but it's still pretty good.

ie said:

I'm in the definite minority here, and not just because I'm only one of only about five Americans to have seen Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance before Oldboy, but, whereas Oldboy maybe could have been the superior movie, the message in Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance was just so fierce in comparison that there's just no contest, in my opinion. I mean...

SPOILER: Click to show

Vengeance will only kill you. Sure, this idea has been played out throughout the ages, but here, it is just so forceful that you can't turn away.

I would like to take any further discussion of this over to the Park (family name) Chan-wook (given name) thread, kthx.

First: Has everyone here seen Oldboy first? Do you think there's some kind of "introduction" factor that leads your first introduction to Park's work to be your favorite?

Second: Sure, there's been a lot of complains about how art-school-amateurish Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is, but I mean, doesn't its overall force make up for that? Isn't it still a stirring movie to watch?

Third: Is Oldboy overrated? I'd sure as hell like to see more people checking out his other movies, because seeing Oldboy, Oldboy, Oldboy all the time on people's favorite movies lists, to me, is just like seeing Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Rings. It's South Korea's most popular modern movie, hands down, but it's not their only movie, nor is it their only good movie.

[captainofbeef]

I don't usually pick the first film I see from a director to be my favorite. And I in fact wanted to see SFMV first. But the Blockbuster here shipped Oldboy about a year before SFMV, and I just couldn't wait that long to see it.

SFMV has a very forceful second half. No doubt about that. But Oldboy is more forceful. Oldboy shoves its message down your throat from the moment you start watching the film. SFMV takes a while to get going and this dulls the impact of its powerful force.

Just because many people like the film doesn't mean its overrated. I have seen probably 10 or so South Korean films. I won't pretend to call myself an Asian film buff. But Oldboy is the best film that I have seen out of South Korea. I am open to seeing any film out of South Korea that is better than Oldboy.

Now I have a question for you, is your annoyance at the close-mindedness of people to South Korean films other than Oldboy influencing your decision on the film itself?

[Clark Nova]

i'll admit that the only taste of south korean cinema that i've gotten has been park's revenge trilogy, so of course oldboy would be my favorite...i will see more eventually, though.

i had the same problem with japanese cinema when i saw a shitload by kurosawa (all of which i loved) and nothing else (except the Samurai Trilogy which I wasn't a fan of)...i changed that by watching Ugetsu, and that was so good i'm convinced i need to broaden my horizons.

[kiddo]

The deal with this Symoathy vs. Oldboy-thing, in my view, is that Oldboys more rapid style appeals to more people. Sympathy has a much more relaxed pace, it takes its time and allow the audience to kind of absorb the pictures and basically what's going on. In Oldboy, I feel that Park uses a style more appealing to many of the (younger) audiences around the world. And it works brilliant. It has this greater feel of chaos in it's quicker editing style and so on. Sympathy convey more of an inner chaos with it's longer shots. When that's said, I will have to rewtach Sympathy. Too long time since I watched it (only seen it once).

(With Lady Vengance, Park screamed "See how good I am!", and this nice trilogy ended up in more or less a mess. The two first is strong enough to keep the trilogy up among the greats, I think, maybe, though)

[ie]

Well, what I was trying to say is that, it would seem reasonable that the first movie one sees by a director could become their favorite, because what they're seeing is new and exciting. After watching a few movies by the same director, and maybe realizing that the director uses the same kind of style for all of their movies, well, maybe those other movies become less impressive.

Just something to think about, I guess. (This idea is kind of like the one, for novels, where the first generic fantasy novel you read is your favorite because you see everything there was to see, and everything else was, well, generic. Adapt that into a movie format and take out the negatives, and it could work.)


I try not to let others influence my opinions. I blind-bought and saw Oldboy about a week or two after watching Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, and I just wasn't as impressed with Oldboy. In other words, I didn't have the same gut reaction. With Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, I was like, holy shit!, holy shit!, holy shit!, what did I just see? It also caused me to go out and blind-buy Oldboy.

I like Oldboy, don't get me wrong there. I just found Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance to be a more powerful movie (see the spoiler at the end for more information), and I found Joint Security Area to be a really unique, well,

SPOILER: Click to show

lesson in culture, not a murder mystery. And I really liked that.

So when I see a top list that includes Oldboy, I sometimes wonder how much thought was involved there. Did this person just check out to see what all the buzz was about, liked it, and then went back to their normal routine? Is it just a fad? Shouldn't the movie cause such a strong gut reaction that it would cause you to go and raid the foreign movies section?


Oh yeah, as for the impact of the two movies...

SPOILER: Click to show

I actually thought the ending of Oldboy dulled the force of its message. Ambiguity is good for most movies, because it allows for discussion and allows for movies to help decide where your biases might lay. But if you're a filmmaker and you want to make a visceral opinion, having an ambiguous ending just does not help.

With Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, the ending was just like: you will fucking die if you center your life around vengeance. Maybe you won't get murdered and chopped up into pieces if you're a vengeful person, but you won't be as fulfilled of a person if your actions in life revolve around vengeance. The way that was summarized in Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, to me, was just amazing.

[ie]

That's an interesting way to put it, kiddo.

I thought Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance did have more of a story that you had to keep up with and pay attention to, because not everything was told conventionally. There also is not any humor or emotional relief, making for a more challenging movie.

These were my main reasons for knocking it from a 10/10 down to a 9/10. I tried to show it to someone who had seen Oldboy, but he just didn't care for it as much, so I couldn't give it my 10/10 - everyone needs to see this - rating anymore, even if I still think highly of it.


Lady Vengeance is waiting for me at the library. (She hasn't been waiting long , but there are lots of people in line so I have to be quick. No foreplay. I know, in summary, what everyone here thinks, or the general consensus, but quite frankly, I don't care. If I agree with everyone here, that's fine, but I want to give myself the chance to actually enjoy the goddamn movie, instead of writing it off without even seeing it.

[Clark Nova]

IMO, there's nothing wrong with a somewhat ambiguous ending. gives you something to think about. and for me, the really good movies make me thing long and hard after i've seen it, and that's exactly what oldboy did. the theme that revenge solves nothing and only destroys those who seek it resonated just as strongly in oldboy as it did in mr. vengeance for me, maybe even moreso. movies with clear, cookie-cut endings more often than not treat the viewer like an idiot IMO.

and my putting oldboy in my top 20 had little to do with comparing it with other south korean movies or other chan-wook park movies...it was quite simply like nothing i've ever seen before. the visual style, storytelling technique, and performance by min-sik choi were so...different and innovative in my opinion that i was just blown away. so i try not to compare movies to movies by the same director or country of origin, but to every single movie i've ever seen. of course, that doesn't mean who directs it is meaningless...kurosawa, for example, is and will probably always be my favorite director, and other favorites of mine, like park and scorsese, have their signature styles, but that's not all i use to judge them is all.

[ie]

Well, the thing is, there are really only two main kinds of endings:

• The first good ending is a stirring argument, a visceral attack on the senses, a shocking conclusion. All of these either are the same or heavily relate to one another. There is no alternative, it is the only ending, but also, it also compels you to do something.
  
  
• The other good ending is where your interpretation of the events leading up to the ending determines what your ending will be. In other words, the ending is ambiguous, it is your choice how it ends, and so long as it's not unreasonable, it's perfectly valid to debate.
  

There probably are exceptions, and I defined these broadly enough to not offend anyone, but the basic idea is that these are the two major types of endings. If a story is building up toward an ambiguous ending and you're left with a set-in-stone ending, you could be left feeling like the director is telling you that this is how you should interpret it. Conversely, the opposite will take a strong and potent theme and make it less memorable. So, both can be valid and work well for a story, and both can be used inappropriately.


If you've been reading thus far (concerning you the audience in general), you could determine that I felt the ending of Oldboy could have been more concrete. Now, I haven't seen it in a while, so I might be wrong, but that's just how I felt about it then and could remember about it now.


Overall, though, if Oldboy is in your Top 20, that's great.

I, myself, I just tend to compare similar movies, and if I can't put my favorite Park Chan-wook movie, Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, in my Top 20, and if my second favorite Park Chan-wook movie, Joint Security Area, somehow fell out of my Top 50, then where does that leave Oldboy? Currently, at #71. I could rewatch it and suddenly have a change of heart or something, but for now, that number (with a rating of 9/10) works just fine for me. It's a great rating in my books, especially since it currently sits at #122 at IMDB, so there shouldn't be complaints about how it should be higher or anything of that nature.


Also worth mentioning: I picked up Lady Vengeance from the library and will be watching it (her?, oh these jokes are great) later tonight. I will try not to post thoughts on the movie until I finish it, although I may write a few things down in between breaks or short pauses like I always seem to do.

As I mentioned before, I know the general consensus on Lady Vengeance, but as we also know, I don't always agree with that general consensus, so... predictions? I'm doubtful if it'll become my new favorite Park Chan-wook movie, so, I'm going to predict a 9/10 with a range of #50 to #120 on my Top 500 (work in progress). I'll post some commentary on this after I watch the movie.

[kiddo]

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the movie. You may just like it very much, espesially since some of us here have expressed our more or less negative thoughts. I've heard of a lot of people liking the movie pretty much, and from the reviews I've read, it has gotten more positive than negative response. So many think this is a great film. I just thought it was very pretentious (and I feel that I don't use that word very often). Espesially the first half was poor in my eyes.

But, as said, I'm interested in your thoughts, and maybe we can have a longer discussion on it afterwards. Hope you like it!

[ie]

Some thoughts about Lady Vengeance, as of about the 25 minute mark, I think.


First, it doesn't doing anything for me at all. Very artsy intro, didn't really make a lot of sense, but then again it was 3 AM, it was dark and I was not wearing sunglasses.

Went back to it after a nap, and somewhere between the five to ten minute mark it just really drew me in. I mean, this is definitely an art house kind of movie. An "Asian extreme" art house movie, no less. So I can definitely see how polarizing the opinions are.

I'm digging the movie, but I doubt that I don't think I will be as stunned by it as I was with Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, nor do I think I'll be as impressed with it as Joint Security Area. Based off of what I've seen, a more current prediction would still place this movie at a rating of 9/10, somewhere between #60 and #110 on my list, with a final thoughts consisting of something like "I liked this movie, the visuals were great, but this is not my favorite Park Chan-wook movie. Still, I'm quite impressed with his movies and will continue to follow his work."


edit: Quick note. Park Chan-wook, buddy, I am utterly disappointed with the choices you made

SPOILER: Click to show

with casting Geum-ja Lee's 13 year old daughter. She is fucking annoying! Maybe you have something up your sleeve, but up to the 45 minute mark at least, her performance has forced me to face the fact that I'm probably not going to give this movie a 9/10 anymore, which is something I DID NOT want to see happen.

(Just a little bit too flawed, with this being the deciding factor. In other words, I could forgive... up until this point.)

[ie]

My thoughts were a little harsh at the end of my last post.

For a change of pace, instead of picking out elements I liked or did not like, I'll instead give a rundown of how I felt about the movie as it was happening. Well, you'll see:

SPOILER: Click to show

At first, I was a little confused, then a little disinterested, then I picked up interest before the ten minute mark. Things were going decently, then a nose-dive at around the 45 minute mark. Things gradually picked up, then there was the long scene as they were planning what to do with the antagonist that really made up for most of the earlier flaws, before dropping down a little bit toward the end, with an ending that left some ambiguity in there.

And, so much for that whole revenge doesn't pay bit, huh? I guess vengeance really does pay!, because hey, if you hold out long enough, not only are you able torture the guy as long as you want with all of your pals, but the police are even willing to help you out! Now THAT is a sweet deal.

So, yeah, it was uneven and packed absolutely no punch. Sure, the "revenge" trilogy is more of a theory imposed on us by marketers, but still, the movie offered nothing constructive about revenge. Does revenge pay? Is it worth chasing after? Apparently so.

I think Park Chan-wook is a very creative director, with a keen eye for things that happen every day but you just don't think about too much, even if his creativity does come out as a little bit too "artsy fartsy" for some people. I'm impressed by what he can do and will continue to follow his work.

Rundown with ratings:

• Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 9.5/10
  
• Joint Security Area - 9/10
  
• Oldboy - 9/10
  
• Lady Vengeance - 8/10
  
  
  

I didn't hate Lady Vengeance, especially not as much as most people seem to hate it, as you could see from my rating. It was a good story on its own, but in terms of having gained anything from watching it, I gained nothing from watching it.

[ie]

police386 said:

agentknight said:

Holy FUCK! His new movie looks amazing!

www.imdb.com/title/tt0497137/

omfg, i MUST see this. you all don't understand...this is, like, a matter of life and death. this just sounds...unbelievable

Just saw it. Advance copy.

It's like Lady Vengeance in that there is definite style over substance on display here - same cinematographer, and it's not very intense or ...awesome. Sorry kids. Instead, you're going to get yourself into an unconventional rom-com that may remind you of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Starts out well and never really flops or anything, but just kind of drifts to an 8/10 conclusion.

I might watch it again once it comes out state side, but I'm not going to pre-order it or anything. Be a little hesitant with how much effort you put into getting this one, and how much anticipation you put into it, so you're not disappointed with it. A majority of people seem to be, which is too bad because it's really not horrible or anything.


Here's how my ratings of his work looks, so far:

1. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 9/10
2. Joint Security Area - 9/10
3. Simpan - 9/10
4. Oldboy - 8/10
5. Three Extremes: Cut - 8/10
6. I'm a cyborg, but that's OK - 8/10
7. Lady Vengeance - 7/10

That's an overall rating of 8.28/10 for all his work, which isn't stellar, but is not bad at all either, especially since I don't consider any of his movies to be unwatchable (for being horrible, not violent) at this point. He just needs to be a big careful with his next move..

Which is a vampire movie. So, he might disappoint at all with that one.

[criterionmaster]

There are so few good vampire films, and this one is even going to try and be a "modern day" one. I don't have a good feeling about it. I have Oldboy downloaded on my computer to watch, so I look forward to it.

[ie]

I don't recall any good vampire movies myself, but it sounds like some of it, called Evil Live, might be based on the kind of vampire homage he made in Three Extremes: Cut. And the scene from that was pretty decent.

As for Evil Live, which additionally, might not be the final title because it does conflict with this movie named Evil Live, and this movie named Live/Evil - Evil/Live, it's too far in the future to really say one way or another. He might even still be planning it, but I see him as a very competent director, even though he's been putting out some movies lately that I can like and respect but not admire.

As for the modern look to the vampire movie, I dunno. He gets cinematographers that really like colors, but it might turn out well. Dunno.

[Clark Nova]

criterionmaster said:

There are so few good vampire films, and this one is even going to try and be a "modern day" one. I don't have a good feeling about it. I have Oldboy downloaded on my computer to watch, so I look forward to it.

Watch it NOW. I think Oldboy is one of my Big 3 Or 4 Or 5...as in the few movies that put me over the edge of realizing that there's a whole world of cinema out there beyond the blockbuster Hollywood shlock and that got me into the art of cinema...Seven Samurai and Once Upon a Time in the West are 2 more that I can immediately think of.

[captainofbeef]

I think Dan should watch Sympathy for Mr. vengeance first, so he can go in the order of the trilogy.

[Clark Nova]

police386 said:

omfg, i MUST see this. you all don't understand...this is, like, a matter of life and death. this just sounds...unbelievable

and i was drunk when i said this.

[ie]

I agree. Go "in order."
The revenge aspect is really strong with Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, somewhat strong with the more traditional Oldboy and just way off in the style end of things with Lady Vengeance.

Also, since the whole idea of a "trilogy" was just a marketing ploy to sell his other movies, I don't highly recommend its use, but don't worry about it too much. I even referred to it above, so it's not that bad, just inaccurate and will give you false hopes.

police386 said:

and i was drunk when i said this.

I know, I just want to give you a really early warning that you shouldn't invest that much effort into watching I'm a cyborg, but that's OK (which is how it was spelled in the title card, so I'm going with the lack of capitals). Just watch it in a relaxing environment once it comes out and you should be fine, otherwise you'll hate it, be completely disappointed with it and not want anything to do with it ever again. See, I'm a nice guy.

[Clark Nova]

captainofbeef said:

I think Dan should watch Sympathy for Mr. vengeance first, so he can go in the order of the trilogy.

why? i didn't. but actually, I like ie's point of going in order, just to see Park's evolution of directing technique...about as minimal as you can get in Mr. Vengeance, to the perfect blend of story and strong acting and style in Oldboy, to an over-abundance of style in Lady Vengeance (almost to the point of drowning out story/character)...kind of a progression of least, more, most.

[ie]

Well, you would "go in order" because you have the chance to; everyone else went and shot their collective loads and say Oldboy, then immediately proclaimed it as the best thing ever, without even considering the rest of South Korean, or even most Asian in general, movies.

I mean, you like Oldboy for different reasons than everyone else, who just thinks it was cool and shit, but it's still, he didn't go shooting his load off, why not check something else out first? You can have a different perspective on Park's work than most people.

[criterionmaster]

ie said:

I don't recall any good vampire movies myself, but it sounds like some of it, called Evil Live, might be based on the kind of vampire homage he made in Three Extremes: Cut. And the scene from that was pretty decent.

As for Evil Live, which additionally, might not be the final title because it does conflict with this movie named Evil Live, and this movie named Live/Evil - Evil/Live, it's too far in the future to really say one way or another. He might even still be planning it, but I see him as a very competent director, even though he's been putting out some movies lately that I can like and respect but not admire.

As for the modern look to the vampire movie, I dunno. He gets cinematographers that really like colors, but it might turn out well. Dunno.

I dunno, I like some vampire films. A couple good ones are Lost Boys and Near Dark, you would probably enjoy the second one I mentioned more than the first, since the second one is really dark and awesome, whereas some might not like Lost Boys since it has the two Corey's in it and shit.

There are probably some others that I am forgetting though.

police386 said:

criterionmaster said:

There are so few good vampire films, and this one is even going to try and be a "modern day" one. I don't have a good feeling about it. I have Oldboy downloaded on my computer to watch, so I look forward to it.

Watch it NOW. I think Oldboy is one of my Big 3 Or 4 Or 5...as in the few movies that put me over the edge of realizing that there's a whole world of cinema out there beyond the blockbuster Hollywood shlock and that got me into the art of cinema...Seven Samurai and Once Upon a Time in the West are 2 more that I can immediately think of.

I will watch it sometime soon, I saw a couple minutes of it a long time ago, and since I have heard such good stuff about it, I hopefully will enjoy it.

So what is it you guys, can I watch Oldboy first, or would there be a huge difference if I started with the first in the trilogy? If it didn't make that big a difference, then it would be easier for me to just watch Oldboy first. I would probably need to know before the weekend and stuff.

[captainofbeef]

Its not gonna make that big of a difference. SFMV is to Oldboy what Kagemusha is to Ran, to put it bluntly. The opening event for the main act. They aren't direct sequels and aren't related to each other, but seeing SFMV first will allow you to see how Chan Wook evolved as a director. But like I said, its not gonna affect how much you enjoy the film.

[joshuaost]

Park Chan Wook is a God. Oldboy is my favorite film of all time and everytime I watch it I'm at a lose for words. It is astonishing. I have watched it numerous times (I own the 3-disc collector's edition) and I cannot find anything wrong with it. The acting (Choi Min-sik is amazing), the direction, the score, the photography, everything is perfect. The ending is one of the best I have ever seen in cinema. If I could only watch one movie for the rest of my life, I would pick Oldboy.

[Clark Nova]

captainofbeef said:

Its not gonna make that big of a difference. SFMV is to Oldboy what Kagemusha is to Ran, to put it bluntly. The opening event for the main act. They aren't direct sequels and aren't related to each other, but seeing SFMV first will allow you to see how Chan Wook evolved as a director. But like I said, its not gonna affect how much you enjoy the film.

dude, just watch Oldboy. Yes, Mr. Vengeance is obviously like a test-run for Oldboy, but watching Oldboy first certainly didn't detract from my appreciation of it. Hell, I still haven't seen Kagemusha, and yet Ran is my 4th favorite movie of all time.

[wkw]

I loved Oldboy the 1st time I saw it, but now I think it's pretty overrated. It's stylish and all, but the twist is just too unrealistic and the film overall is emotionally empty. It doesn't really say anything profound about revenge, unlike SFMV. SFMV is very minimalistic compared to Oldboy, and IMO it's more disturbing.