A Top 5 List, with honorable mentions

[Ryan]

There are a number of commonly-cited "best films ever made" that I haven't yet seen (notable examples being The Godfather, pts. 1 and 2, 2001: A Space Odyssey, 8 1/2, and Raging Bull), but of what I have seen, here are my favorites (list subject to change):

1. Citizen Kane (Welles)
2. Seven Samurai (Kurosawa)
3. Wild Strawberries (Bergman)
4. Battleship Potemkin (Eisenstein)
5. Vertigo (Hitchcock)

The following films are some of my favorite films, but I'm not yet sure where they fit in the list...this is an approximate order:

Pulp Fiction (Tarantino)
Rules of the Game (Renoir)
Ikiru (Kurosawa)
Kill Bill Vol. 2 (Tarantino)
Oldboy (Park)
Persona (Bergman)
Rashomon (Kurosawa)
Titus (Taymor)
The Lord of the Rings (Jackson)
Chungking Express (Wong)
Dr. Strangelove (Kubrick)
Sin City (Rodriguez)
The Seventh Seal (Bergman)
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (Pasolini)
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (Lee)

[ryans87]

Er, sorry, the site logged me out...this is my username, if anyone wants to message me.

[Clark Nova]

well, you're certainly off to a good start.

[wkw]

good stuff

[captainofbeef]

Nice list, always good to have a new person on the forum...

[criterionmaster]

Holy hell, first thing I notice is Citizen Kane being number one! I always found that to be overrated actually, it is still a great film, and I give it a 9/10, but I just must not have been as blown away as everyone else. What exactly is so great about it, or why do you put it at number one? I do understand that it is a film that must be seen, and the performances and filmmaking are flawless, but it didn’t really move me, or do much for me.

Ugh, another person who likes Kill Bill Vol. 2 over Vol. 1. I just can't understand how someone could like the second one more, the first one is one of the most fun films I have ever seen, whereas Vol. 2 is a great film, and a good conclusion, but the dialogue isn't on par with his [Tarantino’s] other stuff, and it just felt like a letdown after Vol. 1 being such a masterpiece.

I'll comment on some more after you talk about these, since these were the first two things that stuck out. I do like the list a lot, by the way, just some things I want to ask about.

[ryans87]

As far as Citizen Kane goes, I actually can't think of one single thing wrong with it, except for Joseph Cotten's makeup as an old man. Seriously, that's just about it. But of course, being flawless does not necessarily make it a great film. I love a great many deeply flawed films. But I think Citizen Kane is one of the most powerful, frightening, and deeply human stories I've ever seen on screen. Just a few of the messages it has for me are: 1) people's perspectives on other people tell you more about them than their own descriptions of themselves, 2) no one truly understands one another, 3) there is no way to summarize the intricacies of a human life, and no way to explain or account for human behavior by citing outside factors, 4) love cannot be bought or even earned, 5) few people are truly loyal to others, and most are really working for their own interest, 6) a human life is unimportant in the eyes of the corporate machine, or the political machine, or the media machine, etc. 7) an idealistic human being can become so impassioned that they become an unfeeling, inhuman monster to everyone else, without ever recognizing it...and the list goes on.

Re: Kill Bill: Ok, so your a Volume 1-er...I greatly love Vol. 1, and of course it's entertaining (though actually I think Vol.2's script is better...if you want to take about which is "more Tarantino," I think that Bill is the only character who speaks characteristic "Tarantino dialogue" a-la Pulp Fiction). In any case, though, I think the viewer can only reach a full perspective on Vol. 1 through the lens of Vol. 2. I believe it holds the key to Vol. 1, and contains the ultimate message of both films, which I think is as follows. The madcap violence in the crazy world of Vol. 1 is fun while it lasts, but it is not the real world, or at least, not the important part of the real world...it is a kind of escapism from the real problems of life, which come crashing to the forefront in Vol. 2, after the B.B. revelation. Really, I think the two films should be one film and the whole business will make more sense, but the only actual "division" between parts occurs at the moment of the revelation. After that, life is shockingly normal, and one realizes that this world is harder to live in than the fantasy one. (Really trying to dodge spoilers here.) Anyway...the other thing about Vol. 1 (which turned me off at first but was all part of Tarantino's plan) is the fact that good and evil are very sharply drawn...you root for the Bride and hope she goes on killing all the baddies, especially Bill. But in Volume 2, it becomes clear that the Bride herself has become something of a monstrosity by her absolute devotion to vengeance (see Citizen Kane point 7), and that good and evil are not easily distinguishable, and that the most polar of opposites--young, good, female, Far Eastern-minded Beatrix and old, bad, male, Old Western-minded Bill--are really one and the same at heart, and moreover, are deeply in love. It's a fantastic and challenging message: few human beings can hope to be truly moral, and tend to try to right wrongs by committing more wrongs, and, because they are too scared and shy to communicate their feelings to one another, they demonize one another, as Beatrix does to Bill. The only solution to the whole problem is love--in this case, romantic, Platonic, and familial love--which is a silly, senseless, giddy, frail, but divine thing, that can somehow halt the never-ending cycle of retaliatory justice that "morality" imposes. Anyway, that's my reading, in part.

[criterionmaster]

ryans87 said:

As far as Citizen Kane goes, I actually can't think of one single thing wrong with it, except for Joseph Cotten's makeup as an old man. Seriously, that's just about it. But of course, being flawless does not necessarily make it a great film. I love a great many deeply flawed films. But I think Citizen Kane is one of the most powerful, frightening, and deeply human stories I've ever seen on screen. Just a few of the messages it has for me are: 1) people's perspectives on other people tell you more about them than their own descriptions of themselves, 2) no one truly understands one another, 3) there is no way to summarize the intricacies of a human life, and no way to explain or account for human behavior by citing outside factors, 4) love cannot be bought or even earned, 5) few people are truly loyal to others, and most are really working for their own interest, 6) a human life is unimportant in the eyes of the corporate machine, or the political machine, or the media machine, etc. 7) an idealistic human being can become so impassioned that they become an unfeeling, inhuman monster to everyone else, without ever recognizing it...and the list goes on.

While I think it is technically perfect, I think it is just dull, and was actually kinda bored by the film, although, take into account, I haven't watched the film since probably a year ago. So, when I do watch the film, I will take what you said into account, it does sound like I could like it more now. The messages of the film will be good to look for, since I must not have caught them the first time.

Re: Kill Bill: Ok, so your a Volume 1-er...I greatly love Vol. 1, and of course it's entertaining (though actually I think Vol.2's script is better...if you want to take about which is "more Tarantino," I think that Bill is the only character who speaks characteristic "Tarantino dialogue" a-la Pulp Fiction). In any case, though, I think the viewer can only reach a full perspective on Vol. 1 through the lens of Vol. 2. I believe it holds the key to Vol. 1, and contains the ultimate message of both films, which I think is as follows. The madcap violence in the crazy world of Vol. 1 is fun while it lasts, but it is not the real world, or at least, not the important part of the real world...it is a kind of escapism from the real problems of life, which come crashing to the forefront in Vol. 2, after the B.B. revelation. Really, I think the two films should be one film and the whole business will make more sense, but the only actual "division" between parts occurs at the moment of the revelation. After that, life is shockingly normal, and one realizes that this world is harder to live in than the fantasy one. (Really trying to dodge spoilers here.) Anyway...the other thing about Vol. 1 (which turned me off at first but was all part of Tarantino's plan) is the fact that good and evil are very sharply drawn...you root for the Bride and hope she goes on killing all the baddies, especially Bill. But in Volume 2, it becomes clear that the Bride herself has become something of a monstrosity by her absolute devotion to vengeance (see Citizen Kane point 7), and that good and evil are not easily distinguishable, and that the most polar of opposites--young, good, female, Far Eastern-minded Beatrix and old, bad, male, Old Western-minded Bill--are really one and the same at heart, and moreover, are deeply in love. It's a fantastic and challenging message: few human beings can hope to be truly moral, and tend to try to right wrongs by committing more wrongs, and, because they are too scared and shy to communicate their feelings to one another, they demonize one another, as Beatrix does to Bill. The only solution to the whole problem is love--in this case, romantic, Platonic, and familial love--which is a silly, senseless, giddy, frail, but divine thing, that can somehow halt the never-ending cycle of retaliatory justice that "morality" imposes. Anyway, that's my reading, in part.

I can definitely see where you are coming from, that Vol. 1 wouldn't be as good without Vol. 2, but, maybe the first one just got me too excited about the second one to enjoy it as much, it gave me the wrong impression of what the films were trying to do maybe. All the messages that come out in the second film are great, although the same messages can be found in many other films (especially if you stretch it). But the first one just succeeded more at what it was trying to do, pay homage to old kung-fu/revenge films, if you are a fan of these kind of films, you will catch many homage’s thrown throughout, which makes the film that much more fun. Then, you get to the second one, and it just doesn't feel like it delivers in that area. It does have more Tarantino-like dialogue, but it almost came to the point where I wanted them to stop talking, towards the end with Bill and Beatrix, and that has never happened before with a Tarantino film. There was the perfect amount of dialogue in Vol. 1, like that scene with Fox, but in Vol. 2, it felt like it tried to much.

I guess it is more personal choice, and I agree, they should be one film, like he originally planned. But that surprise ending in the first one wouldn't work as well, in my opinion. What do you think? Having to wait to see the next one was part of what was great about it. Do you know if he still plans to re-edit the films together?

[ryans87]

In fact, I just found out that "Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair" will be released in September...the 18th I think...check the Tarantino Archives website for more.

The "surprise ending" was never meant to be a surprise, just an unnecessary hook. It actually makes for a far more stunning surprise to have B.B. revealed for the first time in the "bang bang, mommy" sequence in part 2.

A pastiche of kung fu homages is certainly loads of fun, but the film would be very weak if esoteric "fun" was all it offered. How is that different from Scary Movie et al.? He may as well have called it "Kung Fu Movie" if that was it's only point. The film works on that level, but it's really meant to be a vast and poignant love story / feminist epic. Again, Vol. 1 was made to make you THINK it was a fun/sickening (depending on your sensibilities) but ultimately simple little tale, before hitting you with Volume 2. (By the way, Vol. 2 has nearly as many homages etc. as Volume 1, they're just to spaghetti westerns and such like. And they are more conspicuously not the subject of the film, just passing references.)

I personally wanted them to talk more in Vol. 2, actually, because I so consistently loved hearing it...but I still think the last forty-five minutes of Vol. 2 are near cinematic perfection, so I really have no negative critique.

[ryans87]

Regarding the hook...the line Bill speaks about B.B. being alive will be removed from Vol. 1, as Tarantino originally intended, before the screen blacks to intermission. I believe I heard that the Bride's opening monologue from Vol. 2 (which is clearly Tarantino's bitter, wincing acknowledgment of the separate halves, and not an originally planned sequence) will be removed as well, and that after the intermission, the film will start immediately with Chapter 6, "Massacre at Two Pines."

[criterionmaster]

ryans87 said:

In fact, I just found out that "Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair" will be released in September...the 18th I think...check the Tarantino Archives website for more.

The "surprise ending" was never meant to be a surprise, just an unnecessary hook. It actually makes for a far more stunning surprise to have B.B. revealed for the first time in the "bang bang, mommy" sequence in part 2.

A pastiche of kung fu homages is certainly loads of fun, but the film would be very weak if esoteric "fun" was all it offered. How is that different from Scary Movie et al.? He may as well have called it "Kung Fu Movie" if that was it's only point. The film works on that level, but it's really meant to be a vast and poignant love story / feminist epic. Again, Vol. 1 was made to make you THINK it was a fun/sickening (depending on your sensibilities) but ultimately simple little tale, before hitting you with Volume 2. (By the way, Vol. 2 has nearly as many homages etc. as Volume 1, they're just to spaghetti westerns and such like. And they are more conspicuously not the subject of the film, just passing references.)

I personally wanted them to talk more in Vol. 2, actually, because I so consistently loved hearing it...but I still think the last forty-five minutes of Vol. 2 are near cinematic perfection, so I really have no negative critique.

yes, i just posted about that, and death proof in the tarantino thread. i really, really look forward to it. that is definitely overreacting, i mean, the film obviously has much more than just homages to kung-fu films. it's style, the performances, dialogue, etc. would all put it light-years beyond the scary movie series, and all it's spin-offs. i guess, i just like to look at the film from a different light than i look at a film say from someone like bergman or fassbinder, i just like to have fun watching it. i mean, there is no other way, really. definitely agree that it is a woman revenge film, no doubt that it is a woman w/power message, or "feminist epic". i noticed some homages in vol. 2, and it is just assumed that there were a lot in there, although i didn't have as much fun spotting them, since i wasn't as familiar with the genre (sub-genre).

i will definitely come back and comment when i see them together, and i might like it more. this might be a jackie brown scenario, where, i like it a lot the first few times seeing it, but don't really realize how great it is until i think about it more and watch it more times. and i can't argue with you about wanting more tarantino dialogue, i felt the same way, but with pulp fiction, i guess it all just depends on the way you think about the dialogue.

ryans87 said:

Regarding the hook...the line Bill speaks about B.B. being alive will be removed from Vol. 1, as Tarantino originally intended, before the screen blacks to intermission. I believe I heard that the Bride's opening monologue from Vol. 2 (which is clearly Tarantino's bitter, wincing acknowledgment of the separate halves, and not an originally planned sequence) will be removed as well, and that after the intermission, the film will start immediately with Chapter 6, "Massacre at Two Pines."

that sounds like it could be fantastic, i don't think i have looked forward to something more in a LONG time. thanks for the information, too.

oh yeah, it is nice to see someone who isn't too much of a snob to have lord of the rings on your list.

what other bergman have you seen?